Joining me on SPX is Eric Deggans, who is many things, including a media critic for NPR.
Eric Deggans 01:27
Technically, TV critic, TV and media analyst, and guest host for NPR.
Joe Hamilton 01:33
Yes, a host too! Yeah, and you’ve guest-hosted quite a few things. That’s kind of fun.
Eric Deggans 01:36
It is. It is. It’s a different set of skills, other than being a critic or being a reporter, particularly at NPR. You know, when you’re a guest host, you’re essentially doing a lot of long-form interviews about a lot of different things. And so it’s cool to get a chance to talk to people over a longer period of time and then also kind of test your knowledge of everything from events in Lebanon—which we’ll be talking about this weekend—to an in-depth interview with musician Jon Batiste about reinventing classical music on his latest record. It’s a wide gamut.
Joe Hamilton 02:11
That just happened about 10 minutes ago, yeah?
Eric Deggans 02:13
Literally, like 15 minutes ago.
Joe Hamilton 02:15
So, what are the logistics of that? I mean, you’ve guest-hosted quite a few different shows on different networks. How do they come to you? Do they just say, “Hey, let’s see if Eric’s available,” and call you?
Eric Deggans 02:27
I think at NPR, it is viewed as a way to allow you to do some different kinds of things. So, part of it, I think, is them being aware that you would be willing to do something like that as a way to kind of spread your wings and do something different and add to what you’re known for.
And then I think part of it too is, you know, we are small but mighty. We had some staff reductions, and so everybody’s trying to do more with less. So when people go on vacation, sometimes it is a little tougher to find somebody who can fill in for them.
So I think both of those things kind of came into play in terms of me guest-hosting. The first time I did it for All Things Considered over the weekend, they were between hosts. Michelle Martin had left for Morning Edition, and they hadn’t really figured out who was going to take over the show full-time. They wound up hiring Scott Detrow to do it.
But in between, that was when I got slotted in to do some guest hosting last year. And then in this case, you know, it’s the Thanksgiving week that we’re talking, and then the next time I’ll do it will be the Saturday after New Year’s. So people are on vacation, a lot of people are gone, and it’s sort of like, “Well, who can we get to fill in?”
But I appreciate it because, again, like I said, I don’t get a chance to do long-form interviews as often in my main job, which is reviewing television and doing trend stories and things like that. So, getting a chance to sort of sit down with, you know, the director of this documentary about yacht rock for about 40 minutes was so much fun because I’m actually a fan of that kind of music, and we got a chance to sort of defend it and talk about why it’s not just pointless schlock or overly saccharine pop.
You get to delve into some things in a way that you normally wouldn’t if you’re just working as a reporter, correspondent, critic, or analyst at NPR.
Joe Hamilton 05:05
They say Christopher Cross was the first victim of the music video. He was doing all right until he had to be seen on camera.
Eric Deggans 05:13
People have said that. A lot of people said that. But also, I think, and the doc kind of makes this clear—Christopher Cross had a ton of success.
Eric Deggans 05:13
People have said that. A lot of people said that. But also, I think, and the doc kind of makes this clear—Christopher Cross had a ton of success. They played songs like “Ride Like the Wind,” “Sailing,” and Arthur’s Theme on the radio constantly.
I just think part of it, too, was that people got tired of that sound, and they rejected a lot of artists they thought were emblematic of it. Christopher Cross got rejected, Toto got rejected, and Kenny Loggins had to start doing movie themes.
A lot of the people who were sort of part of that yacht rock movement paid the price. Fortunately, some pivoted—like the Doobie Brothers, who went back to their biker rock roots, or Michael McDonald, who leaned into his R&B influences. But everybody had to scatter because people just kind of got tired of that sound.
Joe Hamilton 06:13
When you do so many different things, like ethics work, race analysis, media critique, and more—what’s your conscious understanding or management of your personal brand? How do you balance going deep into one field versus having a wide variety of skills and pursuits?
Eric Deggans 06:43
I think my journey reflects what many journalists are experiencing in the modern age. Technology now allows us to do a lot more. For example, 15 or 20 years ago, it would have been much harder for me to work for NPR and live in St. Petersburg, Florida. But with modern online and audio technology, most people don’t even realize I’m not based in D.C., New York, or L.A.
The other thing is that the media industry is much less secure now. It’s harder for big institutions to say to employees, “We’ll take care of everything for you; we’ll be your sole career platform.” In the past, outlets like The New York Times or The Washington Post didn’t encourage staffers to host TV shows, write screenplays, or work externally because they wanted full control of their reporters’ output.
But now, the industry has evolved. For example, NPR doesn’t have a TV platform, so when I was invited to guest host CNN’s Reliable Sources, NPR saw it as an opportunity to extend their brand alongside mine. It helps both parties.
At both the Tampa Bay Times and NPR, I’ve been fortunate that my employers valued my external contributions. They understood that letting me explore other platforms enhanced their brand, too. This flexibility has been crucial in navigating a less secure media landscape.
Joe Hamilton 10:36
What about the strategy of personal branding? You’ve cited Roger Ebert as an influence. Could someone like him, known for a specific niche, succeed today with a more diversified portfolio?
Eric Deggans 10:50
That’s an interesting example because Roger Ebert was actually one of the first journalists to diversify in this way. While he was primarily a movie critic for the Chicago Sun-Times, he also co-hosted the PBS show Sneak Previews with Gene Siskel. That show turned him into a national celebrity.
He authored books, created a website, and even produced a documentary about his life. So, while his primary focus was movies, he leveraged his expertise into other media.
For me, it’s been about finding fulfillment in what I do. I’ve focused on becoming an authority on media, race, and music, as those are my core interests. Then, it’s about choosing platforms that align with those strengths—whether that’s teaching at Duke, guest-hosting at CNN, or writing a book.
The key is being selective about opportunities and ensuring they build on what you love and what you’re skilled at.
Joe Hamilton 14:29
When I think of Ebert, his work was always centered on movies. Do you think narrowing down like that is necessary to reach the top of a field?
Eric Deggans 14:36
Not necessarily. While Ebert focused on movies, he didn’t limit himself. He discussed TV and pop culture, too.
It’s more about identifying what fulfills you and finding the right outlets for that. For me, that’s exploring media’s intersection with race, music, and society. Once you know your core focus, you can diversify within it.
Joe Hamilton 15:05
You’ve mentioned how Fox News capitalized on a broad niche, particularly targeting white, conservative males. Have similar strategies succeeded in other demographics?
Eric Deggans 15:15
Absolutely. For instance, Oprah Winfrey built an empire by connecting with middle-aged women, particularly white women, through uplifting and empowering messaging. She created a billion-dollar brand that extended to magazines, cable networks, and live tours.
Similarly, platforms like The Breakfast Club and Club Shay Shay target Black audiences, especially Black men, with tailored messaging. These niches can be incredibly lucrative if you understand their values, fears, and desires.
Joe Hamilton 17:21
Is this connected to the term you used, “the tyranny of the broad niche?”
Eric Deggans 17:26
Absolutely. In my book Race-Baiter (2012), I discuss this concept. Essentially, in a fractured media environment, the platforms that dominate are the ones that can capture the largest piece of a specific niche.
For example, Fox News recognized that cable news audiences were predominantly older, white, and politically conservative. By creating a network that spoke directly to their fears, hopes, and beliefs, they secured a significant share of that audience. Roger Ailes, Fox News’s founder, created a channel that mirrored his worldview—middle-aged, white, conservative—and built compelling programming around it. That strategy turned Fox News into a juggernaut and reshaped the political landscape.
Joe Hamilton 19:04
Has this strategy been successfully applied to other niches beyond white conservative males?
Eric Deggans 19:15
Yes, it’s been replicated for other demographics. Oprah Winfrey is a prime example. She created a brand that resonated deeply with middle-aged women, particularly white women, by centering her messaging on self-improvement and positivity. That audience followed her across ventures, from TV shows to magazines to live events.
Another example is The Breakfast Club, which speaks directly to a Black audience, particularly Black men, through culturally relevant conversations. Charlamagne Tha God, a co-host, has extended his personal brand into books, public speaking, and TV shows.
The difference is that in some demographics, politics isn’t always the central unifying force. For example, Oprah’s messaging focused on personal growth and empowerment, while platforms like Fox News build loyalty by leveraging fear and political polarization.
Joe Hamilton 21:22
When building a brand or serving a demographic, what’s the difference between using healthy and unhealthy tactics to attract an audience?
Eric Deggans 22:02
As a media critic, I evaluate messaging through three main criteria. First, is the messaging rooted in toxicity? Does it promote racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, or other harmful ideologies? For example, platforms like Rush Limbaugh’s show or Fox News often fail this test.
Second, is it honest with its audience? Some platforms prioritize sensationalism or political agendas over factual reporting. For instance, Fox News repeatedly amplified Donald Trump’s false claims about the 2020 election, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
Third, does the platform take responsibility for its impact? If a platform spreads misinformation, it can have real-world consequences, such as the January 6th Capitol attack or vaccine misinformation during the COVID-19 pandemic.
Positive platforms like Oprah’s encourage self-improvement and community building, while toxic ones exploit fears and divisions to manipulate their audiences.
Joe Hamilton 27:31
When it comes to marketing and media, why do platforms like Fox News or Joe Rogan’s podcast resonate so deeply with their audiences?
Eric Deggans 28:02
It’s about understanding what your target audience fears, hopes, and values, and crafting messaging that speaks directly to those emotions. For Fox News, it’s urgency, fear, and blame. For Oprah, it’s positivity and empowerment.
The delivery method also matters. Fox News uses flashy visuals, charismatic hosts, and a sense of urgency to engage its audience. Oprah built a sense of community through book clubs, live events, and uplifting content that made viewers feel part of something bigger.
For someone like Joe Rogan, it’s about creating a casual, unfiltered space where his audience feels like they’re part of an honest conversation. All of these platforms succeed by resonating deeply with their audience’s preferred communication style.
Joe Hamilton 34:23
How do tribalism and identity play into media consumption today?
Eric Deggans 35:14
Tribalism has always existed, but the fractured media landscape makes it more visible. People align with media outlets or personalities that reinforce their identity and beliefs.
For example, Fox News caters to conservative white Americans who feel their cultural dominance is threatened. Similarly, platforms like Tucker Carlson’s show create a sense of belonging by validating their audience’s worldview.
In the past, dominant culture was so pervasive that people didn’t have to think about tribalism—it was just the norm. But as marginalized groups gain more agency and representation in media, those fault lines become more pronounced, fueling backlash from those who feel threatened by societal changes.
Joe Hamilton 39:52
Through that lens, was Roger Ailes a broadcasting genius, or was Fox News simply the natural result of demographic backlash?
Eric Deggans 40:09
Ailes was a skilled broadcaster, but Fox News’s success was also a product of its time. Fifty years ago, what Fox News is today was simply the default narrative of mainstream media.
For example, in the 1950s and ’60s, popular culture was dominated by shows like Amos ‘n’ Andy, which caricatured Black Americans in offensive ways. Today, that kind of blatant racism isn’t acceptable, but the underlying dynamics of reinforcing dominant culture remain.
Fox News is a reaction to the increasing representation of marginalized voices in media. It’s a platform for those who feel their cultural dominance is slipping. So, while Ailes’s broadcasting expertise played a role, Fox News also filled a cultural and political vacuum that was bound to emerge.
Joe Hamilton 42:07
How does the fractured media landscape affect our understanding of international events, like Russia’s politics?
Eric Deggans 42:42
It’s complicated. On one hand, the internet gives us access to diverse perspectives, including dissidents inside authoritarian regimes like Russia. On the other hand, most people don’t seek out these nuanced views. They rely on familiar, filtered narratives from their preferred media sources.
For instance, someone who trusts Tucker Carlson might believe his take on Russia, regardless of its accuracy. That’s why media literacy is so important—teaching people how to question their sources and seek out credible information.
Joe Hamilton 44:47
I also think the explosion of information on the internet has overwhelmed people. It’s easier for them to rely on proxies like Tucker Carlson rather than sifting through facts themselves.
Eric Deggans 45:19
Exactly. People gravitate toward personalities they trust because it saves them the effort of verifying information themselves. But this convenience comes with risks.
When the internet first democratized access to information, it was celebrated as a way to bypass traditional gatekeepers. Suddenly, you could see unfiltered reports from people on the ground during major events. But we’ve since learned that this abundance of information also comes with misinformation and disinformation.
Professional journalists are trained to sift through initial chaos—like during a wildfire or a pandemic—and identify credible sources. But citizen journalists and influencers often lack that training, resulting in a flood of rumors and inaccuracies.
Beyond that, we also have bad actors—governments, trolls, or conspiracy theorists—deliberately spreading falsehoods. Add to this the well-meaning but misinformed individuals who unknowingly amplify incorrect information, and you’ve got a perfect storm of confusion.
What’s particularly troubling is how social media devalues expertise. Platforms like YouTube or Twitter treat every opinion equally, whether it’s from a seasoned journalist or someone with no background in the subject. This false equivalence makes it harder for the public to discern credible voices.
Joe Hamilton 51:32
So, where do you see this trajectory going? Will there be a reckoning for this misinformation overload?
Eric Deggans 52:00
It’s hard to say. You’d think events like the COVID-19 pandemic—which killed a million Americans—would wake people up to the dangers of misinformation. Yet, despite the mixed messages and outright falsehoods spread during the crisis, we still see resistance to vaccines and trust in public health.
The January 6th Capitol attack is another example. Even after such a blatant assault on democracy, millions still believe the election was stolen.
As for journalism, I think our industry must adapt. The old model of simply presenting facts and letting people draw their own conclusions isn’t enough anymore. We need to find new ways to engage audiences and rebuild trust. That’s going to be a long process, especially as journalists remain under attack by those trying to delegitimize our work.
Joe Hamilton 54:36
Do you think the “cult of personality” has always been part of media, just in different forms?
Eric Deggans 55:14
Yes, to an extent. Iconic figures like Walter Cronkite or Edward R. Murrow shaped public trust in media during their time. They were seen as father figures, providing stability and authority.
Today, figures like Tucker Carlson or Joe Rogan play a similar role for their audiences. The difference is that the media environment is now fractured, allowing for more niche personalities to thrive. This fracturing makes it easier for audiences to align with voices that reinforce their worldviews, even if those voices promote harmful ideologies or misinformation.
Joe Hamilton 57:47
Let’s bring this back to local news. You’ve had a front-row seat to its evolution. How does local news fit into this fractured landscape?
Eric Deggans 58:25
Local news has been hit hard by the decline of newspapers. When I started at the Tampa Bay Times in 1995, the local news ecosystem was robust. We had multiple newspapers competing, and their investigative work often fueled TV and radio reporting.
Now, that foundation has crumbled. With fewer reporters, local issues are under-covered, leaving communities uninformed. As a result, even local political contests are dominated by national issues like immigration or abortion because people aren’t aware of local controversies.
Some organizations, like the Knight Foundation, are trying to fill this void by funding small, independent outlets. But rebuilding local news infrastructure is costly and difficult. It’s unclear if these efforts can scale in a sustainable way.
Joe Hamilton 1:06:07
And it’s even trickier with algorithms feeding people content they’ve already engaged with. Once someone watches misinformation, the algorithm amplifies it, creating a feedback loop.
Eric Deggans 1:06:23
That’s true, but algorithms can be subverted. If you actively seek out credible sources or different perspectives, they’ll start feeding you that content instead.
Ultimately, it comes down to media literacy. People need to take responsibility for their consumption habits. Platforms like social media give us immense power as consumers, but with that power comes the responsibility to verify what we’re consuming before believing or sharing it.
Joe Hamilton 1:07:34
A challenge we’ll continue to face.
Eric Deggans 1:07:39
Absolutely. As Spider-Man’s Uncle Ben said, “With great power comes great responsibility.” That applies to media consumption now more than ever.
